Some time ago, our pals over at Arrowhead Addict ran a poll to determine the greatest Chief Of All Time (COAT). Our own Bankmeister was asked his opinion, and I found that opinion curious. What follows is our discussion.
Old No. 7: Of the available choices in the COAT, I'd say Derrick Thomas is the best player I ever saw in a Chiefs uniform. Football's a hard sport to do this in, because you can't compare stats very easily for different positions and across different eras. But Thomas was the only guy I was ever scared of for an extended number of seasons. Johnson scares me now, especially late in games, because he can singlehandedly drive down the field and kill the clock. Priest used to scare me. I suppose Old Man Montana scared me, if only because I didn't want to see him break a hip.
A sack is a very small part of the game, but it can change a game. It can be huge. The reason great pass rushers are well-paid, remembered and feared is their impact can be devastating. Like a crucial late-inning HR or, to some extent, a big strikeout with men on base.
I can think of a half-dozen Broncos over the same time period (my viewing lifetime) that are better than Gonzalez, and only one of them is named Shannon Sharpe.
As far as old-timers, I can guarantee that there were many Chiefs during those old black-and-white days that were better. But it's so hard to pick a great football player you never witnessed. I know that Ted Williams was the greatest player in Red Sox history. I can put his stats up against Manny's or Ortiz's or Boggs' or Jim Rice's or anyone else I actually watched and just know that Williams was better. But I have no idea what kind of player Floyd Little was, compared to TD or Portis or Winder or any of the guys I saw. No matter what OJ's stats or Jim Brown's stats say, I'll never have a concept of what they were compared to Emmitt or Barry or Tomlinson in their primes. Football's awesome, but it's kind of fucked historically that way.
Bankmeister: Okay. We've talked before about Hall of Fame candidates. The example that comes to mind first is Terrell Davis. I guess Rod Smith is right there with him, as per those conversations. I would likely put both in, TD being the shoe-in of the two if I had to pick one. You've mentioned, and I've agreed, that there are some fucked-up criteria for getting in. I've agreed and added to that notion that criteria for receiving MVP awards and the like are also messed up, which brings me to Derrick Thomas.
Don't get me wrong, he's one of my all-time favorite Chiefs. I love the way he played, the fact that his mere presence made you think twice, and the fact that he repeatedly murdered your idol in the backfield. Those were good times. For the past two years, however, local sports talk radio has been saturated, come Hall-of-Fame selection time, with Thomas talk. Hosts, and by hosts I mean Grunhard (God, that's such an unfortunate name), plug Thomas like nobody's business. The non-biased --Grunny's far from my favorite, by the way -- illustrate what the national sports writers and voters suggest, which is that Thomas' play is oftentimes viewed as one-dimensional; he put consistent pressure on the quarterback and that's about it. This is not to imply that he couldn't tackle a runner or drop into pass coverage if need be, but he was so quick off the line of scrimmage, that he seldom had to.
But I meant the reasons I listed as to why Tony was the best. I'm sure I don't need to tell you what I mean when I say that life as a Chiefs fan has been full of, well, Hard Knocks. He has, in the last 10 years, epitomized hope. When our QBs have sucked, and we've had no running game, or Derrick freaking Alexander has been our best deep threat, TG has always been there, a guy you could say "Well, at least..." about. And he's always been a Chief. This just in: Eat shit, Johnny Damon. Naturally, I understand from your perspective why Thomas would get your vote. I'm curious as to why you would say the members of this coveted six are better than Gonzalez. Explain. And in doing so, keep in mind your own cautionary position-to-position predicament.
When you're done with that, let's have this out once and for all. Sharpe vs. Gonzalez. Bring it.
Old No. 7: The six guys that I came up with, just off the top of my head, are Elway, Champ, TD, Gary Zimmerman, Tom Jackson and Sharpe. I did not include Rod Smith because I guess my quick criteria was skill as a football player, and Rod has nowhere near the raw talent of those six. The reason I admire him is what he's done with what he has, but that's a story for another day.
John Elway I don't need to explain. He and TJ are also the only ones on my list that played full-length careers in a Broncos uniform. While that's important, no doubt, I have no problem with someone coming to my team later in his career so long as he's a fucking bad ass.
Champ is either the best player in the NFL right now or a hair behind Tomlinson. He's good at absolutely everything and has no weakness. He'd be a Pro Bowler at any position he was allowed to play for a full season.
Although it will never happen, TD should be in the Hall of Fame. But he didn't play long enough, and he'll forever be downgraded as part of the "system" that mass-produces effective running backs. Bullshit.
Gary Zimmerman was a better offensive lineman than anyone I've seen. I didn't play O-line and I was a miserable blocker in my day--bad technique, bad weight distribution, the whole package. But I didn't play hockey either, and when I watched Ray Borque I just knew that this was how you played defenseman. Borque and Zimmerman made their very difficult jobs look easy.
Tom Jackson, you could put in the Rod Smith category. He lacked the physical tools of a lot of these guys but overcame those deficiencies to become a seriously dangerous man. He made more big plays in key situations than any OLB the Broncos have ever had. He was excellent in coverage, tremendous in backside pursuit, a good blitzer and he shed the blocks of much larger men with ease. And he called Michael Irvin a retard on national TV. Mike, you got Jacked Up!
Now, for Sharpe vs. Gonzalez. Shannon Sharpe changed the position and he won three rings. Done. Gonzalez has been exactly what I described him as--a great player. He's succeeded in all the conditions you listed, he's the face of the franchise, and his statistical accumulations will get him into the Hall of Fame. But if you want me to build my ultimate lineup, and I have the choice of any tight end in his prime, I'm taking Shannon. Or Karl Malone. I think the Mailman would have been the most killer tight end ever.
I'm not taking anything away from Gonzalez, I'm just saying that I think these six are better football players, as is Derrick Thomas. There's no shame in that. And as for the one-dimensional pass-rusher thing, I get it. Everyone would like to have their DEs and OLBs be well-rounded football players. But getting to the QB is a skill that wins games. Michael Jordan could have been the best passer God ever created, but at the end of a big game do I want him dishing to Bill Cartwright? Fuck no. I want him getting his ass to the bucket and hammering home the two points that will win the game. That's his thing, the thing he did better than anyone. And Derrick Thomas could kill a QB, a drive and an opponent's chance of winning in a blink of an eye. There are only a handful of guys--ever--that could do it better. We rip on kickers as not being real football players. A guy like Dante Hall is seen as a freak, someone with one special skill but lacking the size or hands to be a real, complete football player.
Whatever. When my team needs a field goal to win, and Adam Vinatieri is on the sideline, he's a real fucking football player. He means more than eighteen awesome tight ends or guards or safeties. When I'm losing at home and I have a perfectly designed punt return alley due to multiple clipping violations, I need Dante Hall to exploit that advantage. He's a real football player. And when the other team has a third-and-eight deep in my territory late in a tight game, and a double-teamed Thomas gets to the QB, wiping out the drive and knocking them out of FG range, he's a real football player. He wasn't any worse in other areas of the game than Bruce Smith or Howie Long, and they're in the Hall. Put him in.
Bankmeister: Oh yeah. I agree. Put him in and put him in now. Let me clear the air, though. I'm not hung up on the playing-for-other-teams bit. I just think it's rad when someone notches an entire career in one uni, and Gonzalez has managed to do that, thus far. I respect most of what you've said, but you forced some table turnage, here.
I'll give you Elway. It pains me, but I'll do it. He was better than Todd Blackledge and stuff. Zimmerman, no doubt. TJ? Love the guy, on and off the field. You know I got respect for TD. Champ? Yeah. He's good. I wasn't sold on him until his recent Opera visit. But, count it! now that that's been leaked to the House.
Here's my beef in a nutshell: Fuck Shannon Sharpe. He didn't change a god-damned thing Ozzie Newsome and Kellen Winslow hadn't already done. He just ran his fat-lipped mouth and loved him some him, making him the pre-T.O. T.O. What that means is that he got himself some coverage. And by "some coverage," I mean a re-donculous amount of hype.
Look at the record books, and yes, his name is all over them. By the end of the day, his name will be under Gonzalez's in every category, and likely Antonio Gates', too. You're right. There's no shame in saying those six are better football players than Gonzalez. Unless of course, you include Sharpe as one of those six. I demand you back up this claim in a fashion that is free and clear of the Wikipedias.
Prove to me that he was a better blocker, pass catcher, route runner, team player, decoy, enunciating of English, anything, than Gonzalez. It'd better be convincing, too, because I'm already stupidly slated to disagree with you based on my rash Irish temper and immense homerisms. I'll add that you've already hurt your case a touch by failing to mention that Gonzalez is and has been the Jordan of the Chiefs. He wins us fucking games hands down. And he doesn't parade around with a stupid horse mask on his head after doing it. He dunks the ball over the goal post (occasional layup notwithstanding) like the mammoth of an athlete that he is, leaving everything Shannon Sharpe-related in his shadows.
Old No. 7: Look...if the criteria was "Tight End You'd Most Like To Have A Slumber Party With," I'd take the fake smile, douchebag personality and latent homosexuality of your boy Gonzalez every time. If Tony Gonzalez was the host of the CBS NFL studio show, I'd watch it way more than I do now. Shannon was great for a sound bite in the locker room, he's horrible on television.
But if the argument is "Who's A Better Tight End?" then there's no debate in my mind. You can allow your hatred of Sharpe to taint your opinion, as you have in the Elway/Montana debate. But look at why you (and many others) say that Montana is better than Elway. Montana was the most clutch QB ever, right? He won all those big playoff games and Super Bowls, while Elway spent most of his career getting blown out in the Big Game until Shanahan, TD (and Sharpe, by the way) helped get this one…for John!
Elway’s regular-season stats blow Montana’s out of the fucking water. He’s twenty per cent better across the board than Old No. 16/19, and better statistically than any QB other than Marino and Favre. Yet you put Joe on top, based on postseason excellence. That’s your opinion, and you have a right to your opinion without folks demanding Wikipedia-free proof that Montana had better footwork, or drew more offsides penalties with his snap count, or executed the play-action fake better, or was better during practice, or played dominoes on the team bus better, or any of the other nonsensical criteria you’ve injected into this tight end discussion.
So, if Montana is better than Elway because he performed better on the biggest stage, let’s apply the same logic to Sharpe and Gonzalez, shall we?
Shannon Sharpe played in 18 playoff games, including three Super Bowls, over eight different trips to the postseason tournament. He amassed 62 receptions, 814 yards and four touchdowns in that span. Most important, his teams went 13-5 in those games, including a perfect 3-0 in the game with the roman numerals on it.
Tony Gonzalez has participated in the playoffs three times, and his teams are 0-3 in those games. He’s amassed respectable numbers in those three losses, 11 receptions, 106 yards and two scores (Note: all statistics courtesy of pro-football-reference.com, a Banky-approved non-Wiki InterWebs resource).
Now obviously, a tight end is not as vital to his team’s ultimate success or failure as a quarterback. But in the offenses that Sharpe and Gonzalez have played in throughout their careers, their efforts have gone a long way to determining the outcome of games. I have seen Tony Gonzalez win many regular season games—he is and has been, in the words of my esteemed colleague, The Jordan of The Chiefs. Well Michael Jordan, in my recollection, won a playoff game. Several, even. He placed his team upon his back and dominated other teams, even when the overall talent of those opponents superceded that of the Bulls.
Now it’s not that Shannon Sharpe singlehandedly won thirteen playoff games. But having watched every one of them, I do know that he converted many third-down conversions and contributed key red-zone grabs to those 90s Broncos. And on the 2000 Ravens, one of the shittiest offensive teams ever to win a Super Bowl, he was their playoff production. He connected with awful Trent Dilfer on a 58-yard touchdown in a 21-3 wild-card win against the Broncos, a play that essentially ended the game. His 96-yard score against the Raiders in the AFC Championship provided the winning margin in a 16-3 game.
Tony Gonzalez, he did score the TD that kept the Chiefs from being shut out against the Colts last year. So he’s got that going for him, which is nice. And while his stats are very similar to Sharpe’s right now, he’ll log a few more years and push those numbers 20 per cent past Shannon’s, similar to the gap between Elway and Montana. So if you’re going to keep Gonzalez as your No. 1 tight end, I assume you’ll soon be switching your top QB?
Bankmeister: Like most people, I certainly despise admitting defeat. There is no way on the planet I could counter the way you've portrayed this paradigm. Granted, it took you three months and several temper tantrums to construe it, it is a work of genius. That said, I place Old No. 16/19 where I place him largely based on SuperBowl MVP awards and resilience. Your boy has some impressive statistics in his admirable career, but they only amount to, in my skewed/biased/tainted/uneducated opinion, fourth best of all time. Conversely, I give Sharpe the nod for number two. If Tony had had one really good, fourth-best-of-all-time QB slinging him the rock for 11 years, his numbers would be 10 times those of Sharpe's. But he didn't, he did it with a handful of better-than-mediocre quarterbacks.
Nevertheless, your logic is solid, and by those measures, your ass-faced Ravens-jersey-renting tight end is the best of all time. Except for the fact that he's not.
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In the realm of Chief bloggery, Arrowhead Pride is among the best, and this week, primetime 07 put together a post on Tony Gonzalez. The eye-catcher is a chart -- those boys love their charts -- pitting Gonzalez against the top seven tight ends in the league. The numbers show that, among Jason Witten, Chris Cooley, Antonio Gates, John Carlson, Jeremy Shockey, Lieutenant Winslow, and Dallas Clark, Gonzalez leads the pack in catches, yards, touchdowns, and first downs.
